Any word on State of Texas filings in this case? They were originally expected to give the Court their response last Friday.

so what's the deal.
Does this mean that if one or tw0 were abused the State can hold all 464.... if so...watch out people.
They will have to hold every Catholic because of a few priests.

The state will probably try to come up with some incomprehensible definition of child sexual abuse, and then apply it to the FLDS children. Probably a definition that has nothing to do with sex or abuse, as any normal person would think of it.

'Proof of sexual abuse'? Does the fact that several underage girls are pregnant not prove EXACTLY what's going on in this case? The proof is already growing inside the wombs of these underage, unprepared mothers-to-be. I'm surprised no response has been filed to this outrageous accusation. Any 'religious rights' ended the moment these girls were handed over to be raped and impregnated against their will.

"Does this mean that if one or two were abused the State can hold all 464.... if so...They will have to hold every Catholic because of a few priests."

Yes, that's exactly what it means zxcvbnm!

NOT!!!

If you're going to use strawmen, at least try coming up with something a little more creative.

"The state will probably try to come up with some incomprehensible definition of child sexual abuse,..."

Like say, forcing underage girls to marry old geezers and have sex with them is considered child sexual abuse in the state of Texas.

These people still live in prairie dress times. It was common only a few years ago for girls to marry at ages 15 to 17, and get pregnant. It was not abuse then and is not necessarily abuse now. It all depends on the individual case. The problem in Texas is the assumption that all are guilty without looking at individual cases.

Texas would appear to be making up evidence as they go along. Whatever lies it takes to suit their purposes ... and cover their butts. Texas is quick becoming a joke. Sad the kids are made to suffer, for the jerks that run the system.

All I want to know is what about that monogamous couple with the 5 young children all under 10. Why'd they have to have their children taken away? It's not right.

I would bet there are plenty of job openings for any idiot that wants to be CPS worker in Texas.

Qualifications?: To be highly qualified, must hate FLDS

re: "But the brief argues that should Texas provide proof that sexual abuse of minors occurred at the YFZ Ranch, that legally trumps religious freedoms protections and parental rights."

Funny.

"Quite a few" Catholic priests "FOUND GUILTY" of sexual exploitation and abuse of children (amongst other grim verdicts)and this still

DID NOT "TRUMP" -

the "religious freedoms and parental rights" of Catholic families within parishes (compounds) where those particular Catholic priests "served" - even when "more than one" at a parish was found.

Even "FAMILIES OF SPECIFIC VICTIMS" of those priesthood betrayals did not find themselves blamed - much less the whole congregation.

EVEN THOUGH this clearly meant that parents, other church members, etc. in those parishes had indeed "taught their children" to "love" and "obey" "these men" who are believed to "speak" "for God" and are "holy" and "sacred" in ways defined by Catholic Faith.

No one removed children even "WHEN IT WAS KNOWN" - "Where" and "Who" the predators were.

Not so very long ago we were taught the "dangers" and "misconceptions" caused by "LABELING" and "STEREOTYPING" individuals
based on "presupposed assumptions" of larger social bodies they were part of.

Prejudice must be back in style again.

This accusation keeps getting thrown-around about "old geezers having sex with teenagers".

Yes, this did actually happen, and that is why their leader is now in prison...

BUT, reports from the ranch do not yet show anything illegal actually happened there (aside from polygamy-- but that is something likely to go all the way to the Supreme Court).
We do see a lot of 17 and 18 year old mothers to husbands no more than 10 years older, there are even a few 16- year old mothers, but the State of Texas would have to prove that there was sex on Texas Soil, as most of these women moved here from other states with different laws and only during the past year, even past weeks and months prior to the raid, and we are told that some were merely on brief visits.

Don't stoke the fires of this witch-hunt any further, give these people the due process they deserve.

Wonder if the Judge, the Sheriff department, and TX CPS taken together would not qualify to be labeled a HATE group?

Opps ... Probably would also have to include half the "good" citizens down there.

It is still a fact that Texas laws protect minors from sexual abuse. In order to establish the extent of the "Alleged" abuse it IS necessary to remove the minors from their parents - whomever they may be. If allowed to stay w/Mom/Aunt/Auntmom they could possibly be controlled/persuaded not to tell the "Gods Honest Truth." The real truth here is that there could be hundreds of young girls who have suffered sexual abuse at the hands of an older man with the blessings of her parents - sounds like the breaking of a law to me. Whether their "Religion" condones these acts doesn't matter - it is AGAINST the law and all parties involved need to punished. Texas penal code states that from 14 to 17 years old if there is greater than a 3 year age difference it is a crime, under 14 a felony - NO MATTER WHAT

I agree - has all the appearances of a witch-hunt. But ironically, most of the witches seem to actually be working for CPS

Wonder how many little girls have been "raped" by being forced to endure pelvic exams at the hands of CPS strangers. Forced exams = rape of both mind and body.

Re:"It is still a fact that Texas laws protect minors from sexual abuse."
Actually this is NOT a fact.

"I found, from information provided by the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services, in Fiscal 2003, 30 foster children died in our state's care; in Fiscal 2004, 38 foster children died; and in Fiscal 2005, 48 foster children died.

"Data shows that while the number of foster children in our state's care increased 24 percent from 26,133 in Fiscal 2003 to 32,474 in Fiscal 2005, the number of deaths increased 60 percent.

"If you compare the number of deaths of children in our state's population to the number of deaths in our state's foster care system, a child is four times more likely to die in our state's foster care system.

"Based on Fiscal 2004 data provided by the Health and Human Services Commission, about 100 children received treatment for poisoning from medications; 63 foster children received medical treatment for rape that occurred while in the foster care system; and 142 children gave birth while in the state foster care system.
from Carole Keeton Strayhorn
Former Texas Comptroller
Report on Foster Care Abuse

observer - now you're just being ludicrous. Do you really feel that "JOHN Q CPS WORKER" is doing the pelvic exams? Believe it or not Texas has a few trained professionals in the field of modern medicine and yungun's. Try and be realistic in your thoughts before making such crude and cruel comments!

If the "monogamous couple with the 5 young children all under 10" had insisted on subdividing the one piece of property then it would have taken more than one warrant to search. If the family you mention was involved AT ALL in the "shell game" to hide the children from CPS then their own illegal actions involved them.

Comparing the sexual abuse dealt from the Catholic Priests to the sanctioned sexual abuse within the FLDS ranks are 2 very different cases.
Priests - choir boys, where/when did this happen?
years ago and likely on Church property w/o parents present
FLDS - child brides, right in front of and with the blessings of the parents/members of the church
the ONLY similarity is that it is/was sexual abuse of minors, Stop comparing the cases.

I guess rational thinking cannot prevail when dealing with extremists, because they are addicted not only to the teachings of the extreme faith but to the obsession of being obsessed.

Who says that these children have been forced to take pelvic exams. By the way, most of these children do not recieve an education beyond the 8th grade. That in it's self is abuse!! Alienating these women and children to a closed sect also takes away their freedom of choice which is abuse. CPS is just doing the best they can with a bad situation. Had the mothers cooperated more in the beginning they might have had a better chance of staying with their children. Instead, they changed names and ages if they even gave them, interfered when children were asked questions and made the interview process that much more difficult. If they didn't have anything to hide, why be so resistant?

I'm not arguing the number of unfortunate deaths in foster care. Out of close to 30,000 children per year your numbers - although unfortunate - are small. I'm not arguing the number of births while in state foster care - as a matter of fact you can increase this years number by at least one since the young FLDS lady delivered in San Marcos last week - so therefore since a "Child" was pulled out of an "Unhealthy" living condition and subsequently gave birth, the foster care system got her pregnant? I - once again - am not arguing that this state's foster care system is good - or any state for that matter, I am arguing that the children did not need to be left in the custody of their alleged abusers while all this is trying to be sorted out.

That Texas would allow birth and marriage without any documentation shows me that this state is just as far behind the times as the FLDS. If a pregnant under-age girl crosses the state line by force shouldn't the federal goverment be involved in the on-going investigation of what is going on?

Dear TexasFemale bigot. Those "trained professionals" are strangers to those little girl who is forced to endure the exam. Probably crying their eyes out. CPS won't let them have a parent standing by.

The cruel comments are by the HATE FLDS club. Bet you are life time member.

re: observer - now you're just being ludicrous. Do you really feel that "JOHN Q CPS WORKER" is doing the pelvic exams? Believe it or not Texas has a few trained professionals in the field of modern medicine and yungun's. Try and be realistic in your thoughts before making such crude and cruel comments!"

It does NOT MATTER "who" does the exam it is still an invasive procedure that would be "rape" for a child.

Remember - It's NOT "who's doing it" - It's "who" it's being done to.

I'm 52 and have had 5 children and they are STILL horrific for me.

To a young child that has NEVER experienced ANYTHING of this nature it IS SEVERELY TRAUMATIC.

Is there any state in the US where it is legal for a child (under the legally defined age of adulthood) to have sexual relations (consenual or not) with someone over the legal age of adulthood?

If Texas has evidence that concludes that the YFZ society conspired to promote and conceal the above actions; is it reasonable for the children to be removed?

Very few in our culture would say yes, unless you have been living your life in a pseudo-turn of the century compound.

Bet it takes a "big" cop to pull a nursing baby off its mother. Give that man three cheers!! Let's also give some big "appluause" to Texas and the citizens who support institutionalized abuse of kids.

How can anyone be proud to be a citizen of Texas? That the FLDS raid happened in the USA is a national disgrace.

To: Robin Wildflower

It seems the FLDS will throw out any argument, regardless of how irrelevant, to defend their rights to abuse their children.

Please explain how Texas's laws do not protect minors from sexual abuse.

Statistics about births, deaths, injuries, etc. that occur while children are in foster care, while interesting to some, don't prove anything with regards to Texas's laws on child abuse.

Dear "grandma in Illinois": I am in Illinois too. And I think the Catholic pervert priests make a very good comparison. By the Texas mode of operation, they should raid a Catholic school/church and take all the kids ... since any parent that lets their child set foot on Catholic property must be negligent and putting the child in danger.

Dear "grandma in Illinois". Probably being Catholic is not a problem in Texas. Does not matter the priests are perverts if it is one of the State recognized religions.

Could someone post a list of the Texas state approved religions?

Texas CPS will go down and hard.
The FLDS did nothing wrong as a whole, even if a few criminals may have lived among them - which has not been proven nor accused.
The flds committed kidnapping at gunpoint of all these children;
what the texas courts will do:
Offer a compromise agreement, by which the parents will allos some form of supervision, and admit to some vague endangerment. My hopes - the flds won't accept the terms and gets a hefty settlement.

To Observer,
Little girls treated better by a female MD doctor than to be rape by an old man. I'm certain the little girls are much more scared of a old man coming to their bed at night, and I bet they do cry their eyes out--who wouldn't? Get your head on straight!!!

Maybe we should cut of Texas from the US and give it back to Mexico. Texas is a national shame for what they have done and are doing with FLDS children.

Davie Crockett and the Alamo bunch must be turning over in their graves if they can see what Texas now stands for.

Remember WACO, Texas?
Maybe that is the reason the FEDS don't want to get involved.

To Observer,
Catholic children were not sent to the Catholic Priests to be sexually molested. However, FLDS children are sent to old FLDS men by their parents to be raped. A bit of a difference, wouldn't you say?

Any gated community in Texas that is predominantly Catholic is hereby considered a "compound". Texas CPS will be there with warrants in a few minutes due to a phone call from Colorado (Texas CPS, of course, is not privy to any of those new-fangled gadgets like caller I.D. so we'd like you to believe that the warrant is obtained in "good faith" even if the sheriff admits to having an informant inside for 4 years, we have no idea what to expect...we're just going in to help the caller)
If there are any young men having sex with priests that "appear" to be underage, all children and mothers are to be bussed out immediately.
You will probably have to swear an allegiance against the Catholic church if you ever want your children back.
We would also like you to believe that has nothing to do with religion...we're just looking out for the children.
Those who believe this crap, please call me regarding a bridge I have for sale.

If these so-called parents were concerned about their children back when this started why did they refuse to give correct names, marriages etc. unless they were trying to hide something. The CPS has not option except to remove all the children because the parents are too stupid to even know their own last name let alone the blood line of the kid. Mom does not know because she cannot remember which man she was with when she got pregnant, she could ask the prophet - but lets see he is in prison for rape and pre-arranged marriages of underage children - right.

The real problem here is they can only list them as FLDS because the entire clan cannot remember who is related to who or whom - hence the DNA test to prosecute the offenders and set the innocent free. The parents are calling fowl when they are the ones in violation and acting severely retarded.

FLDS admits that they REQUIRE a girl to become married and bear children as soon as they are able. 13, 14, 15. You don't always have to use physical force. The mental of being ostricized, kicked out of the only thing you know, not being saved if you don't let that old fart have sex with you...Is considered forced, and I hope to God it will be considered abuse.

Dear Milton:

Yes ... as you say remember WACO. I quite agree. But didn't that start with Texas CPS ... and then they brought the Feds in for extra "firepower"? Wow ... they sure saved the children there ... sure did!!! Made "crispy critters" out of them. Three cheers for CPS (or should it be thumbs down).

BTW ... I read that Angie Voss of TX CPS cut her teeth on WACO. She has great experience in these things; don't you think? Got herself promoted up to testifying before Judge Walther in the FLDS thing. Still saving kids.

I am having a difficult time understanding how anyone can defend the FLDS church in any way. What they have been doing to children (for years) is unacceptable. They are forcing 15 year old girls who are still babies themselves to have babies with men old enough to be their grandfathers. They have gotten rid of boys from the compound because they are a threat to the older men. For those that live on the compound and are NOT aloud to leave, well their free agency has been taken away. I am grateful for Texas taking action and doing what should have been done years and years ago. If most of the women give their daughters freely to older men and let their sons get kicked out, then they are just as guilty as the men and don't deserve to have their children.

From what I understand, there is a federal warrant that has been issued. That is the reason that the FLDS lawyer from San Antonio did not pursue the issue of having the original warrant quashed. That was what he was trying to do the first day that they went to court.

To Observer:...I think that you just keep mutating...It's_Chet...Justthefactsmaam....and now the observer.

An image I can't shake: The soldier and assault weapon pointed at little Elian Gonzales.

No defense of the FLDS here. But Texas must follow the law too, and honor constitutionally-guaranteed rights. Think of it another way. Suppose that someone was caught in the act of a crime. Should we just toss them in jail without a trial? Or more relevantly, should we shortcut their trial process, skipping constitutionally-mandated steps, to get them to prison faster? The answer is no - these constitutional protections are there to ensure that all of us can feel more secure that our freedom will not be taken away unjustly.

The point being raised by the parents' lawyers and these "friends of the court" briefs is that the en masse hearing held by Judge Walther could not ensure due process for each child and parent. The state should have a burden to prove child-by-child and parent-by-parent that their actions are justified. Otherwise, the state in the future could use the en masse technique to steamroll any action through against a group that is unpopular.

If individual hearings had shown abuse in every case, then fine, take their children - the law would have been followed and rights guaranteed. Individual hearings have not happened in Texas, and that's why I'm concerned.

If only God reseves the right to judge which of you people is GOD?

Dear "AZLDSGal":

I could not agree with you more. My hat is off too you. Everyone deserves full due process, even FLDS. The lynch mob attitude I see in so many posts is horrifying. Downright scary that so many people have the lynch mob attitude.

I am very concerned for the same reasons that you have delineate. Due process has been denied the FLDS. They have had the most important things in their lives (their children) taken away from them ... without the State providing much of any proof other than hearsay and whatever stats they can bend and warp and distort in an attempt to justify their stupidity. Makes me think about atrocities and arbitrary judicial proceedings that are normally attributed to religious based governments. Sort of like Islamic justice/courts, but now we have it here in the USA.

Dear "mypc46"

I think you are probably on the right side of this fiasco, but I am not very religious ... So I guess I can judge what I want as I see it. As I see it in my heart.

And as I see it the FLDS are getting a very raw deal by TX CPS and the Walther court.

What they are doing to FLDS in Texas makes one wonder what laws (if any) in this country are worth a damn. The powerfull just take what they want. In this case children. Shame on Texas.

re: ordering all the men off the ranch...having women live elsewhere with their children.
________________

the women refused to identify their own children for starters. Also they are guilty of not reporting abuse ie sex with underage females which was obvious to the officers by virtue of them being pregnant or with babies already of their own. This is about children's rights not parent's religious rights which come a distant second.

About the "monogomous" FLDS families with 5 children.. I just read an article today, that released information from some of the "secret documents" about the families. Of the monogomous families..most were men in their 20's or younger.. to "get into heaven" they had to have 3 wives, but there was a "favored husband status" there by depicting that men "earned" wives. SICK. So to defend them because they are monogomous is ridiculous, it would only be a matter of time before that man got more wives...probably under age 16...and continued to grow their number of wives. It is all written in their bishop documents... WHAT really is disturbing is the fact that the girls ages 16 and many even younger...are married off.. but the boys as old as 17 and 18 were still allowed to live in their father's homes.

How sad. How horribly sad. The "favored husband" thing referred to the men who did the best things..and got on Warren Jeffs "good list" were granted more wives. It sounds like women are products. Not people. I shudder at the thought of all those precious young teens being forced into sex. Just shudder. Its sick.

Adult males are the smallest group involved here. Removing them would harm the smallest group possible. And the largest group, the children, could return home.

Dear "transplant":

If this is about children's rights ... then why don't they ask each child where they want to be? I would bet you >99.9% of those children would want to be back with their families, not in some State foster care facility were they are basically just numbers under the care of strangers.

As for nursing babies, how can anyone justify pulling them off their mothers breasts?

I suppose it would sound sarcastic to suggest that the mothers might have been teaching that baby or toddler to lie about his/her age/parent to CPS.

As for pregnant teens ... the number I have seen is two and they were both 17. The way CPS presents their statistics ... "as 31 out of 53 ... age 14-17 being pregnant or having been pregnant" ... just distorts the numbers and allows anyone to assume the worst. Did anyone think there were 31 current pregnancies ... or that a pregnant 14/15 yo had been discovered in the raid? Well if you did, WRONG! But of course, CPS led the public to think the worst. Put the worst spin and face on FLDS.