As a teacher I find it very sad that the schedules of these children have no provision for imagination and creativity. There seems to be a dearth of toys. Dolls, blocks, Lego bricks, housekeeping items, trucks, games, doll houses, fire stations, tools and work belts, dressups, in short, the standard preschool type toys that foster imagination and creativity do not seem to be a part of the children's lives. What a shame that pretending is not encouraged. Toys are an important way that a child expresses himself.

Another thing I notice is that there is no interaction mentioned with a father in any of the schedules. Is the father never present? Do any of the children know who their own mother is? The schedules sounded like every child belonged to every mother and they were cared for in a communal way.

I believe that the schedule publishing idea was really to convince the reader that FLDS children are programed every hour of the day in their activities, thinking and associations.

Another one! Crank 'em out.

I see nothing in the scripted life to prepare for the real world. What happens to these people when they mature?

Doodles, what you have wondered and described in your post is the true picture America is veiwing and forming an opinion, that this is merely a child slave breeding compound, for the purpose of sex with minors. Soon, the state of Texas will release evidence that will horrify all of us outside the mormon religion. Defenders of these criminals- take note...as more children have babies, ages are determined, sexual abuse of youg boys, and physical abuse of children(broken bones) are revealed to the public, through court hearings, how will decent mormons continue to defend your fellow member's actions? The FLDS, are trying to fool us with religion, childrens daily schedule,...... but where is the schedule for impregnating young girls, because there seems to be quite alot. WOW, this is bad!!!!

When you are doing something you know to be wrong, there is danger in telling the truth.

If these people are truly followers of Jesus Christ and they have nothing to hide, they would be telling the truth....

Most parents teach their children to tell the truth at a very young age, even if they have to suffer consequences.

Because so many of the women in this sect have given birth when underage, they are told to lie....

hum..... there is something hypocritical about this process.

"We are God's chosen people, however, he doesn't expect us to tell the truth. It is okay for us to lie."

More rabbits for the cause.

Doodles: yes, children need to have time and space for imagination and creativity. It is obvious that the leaders of this cult want the children to be believers, not thinkers. There will be no doctors or scientists out of this crowd. There will be no engineers or researchers from this compound. There will only be children set up for the old men.

You pointed out something very symbolic of the problems of this cult.

If she was pregnant and kinda looks young to the judge, she MUST be 16 despite what her birth certificate says. That is just how the State of Texas handles these cases.

Perhaps you are not aware of it "teacher" but toys HINDER creativity and advertisers everywhere thank you for drinking their kool-aid. It seems the FLDS children sans toys are actually given the opportunity to pretend and not duplicate actions of commercials or the latest t.v. program.

You mentioned that fathers are not on a schedule, so what. Heaven forbid the spontaneity of paternal influence. Visit the school of my children and half do not have ANY paternal influence. And heaven forbid if more than one person acts maternally to a given child. Oh those poor FLDS children are bombarded by too much love. I am personally grateful for the neighbor who my daughter refers to as her other mother.
Just because a schedule is produced does not mean it is followed. I write to be completed tasks on my calendar with only a hope that most can be finished.
I began with the belief that the CPS was a correct and sound one. But, with more information I find that the FLDS are targeted just because they are different. It's a modern day color bar.

"Children who are just learning to walk love to help wash doorknobs, benches, cupboards, etc.," said the guidelines for children ages 0-2 years.

It's sad that they can't let their kids be kids.

Again, why aren't the fathers in this compound held accountable in some way for the brainwashing and the abuse? If there isn't some provision to separate them from the group won't all of this just continue?

In spite of the reasons cited for taking the children away, I remain uncomfortable with the state taking a newborn child away from its mother. It seems this could be a precedent for abuse of a seemingly noble deed in other circumstances where a group of people could think, for one reason or another, that any of us should have our children taken away.

This case isn't as straightforward as Texas law authorities would think.

I am not surprised to have brought home what a restrictive quality of life is programmed into life in an enclosed community.
I compare this with the madrassa in Islamic culture, but there at least there is scope for imagination and creativity.
Whatever the rights and wrongs about teenage pregnancies, I have real concerns about the power and control issues these attempts at PR bring to my mind. Personal freedom and expressions of choice don't seem to figure in this lifestyle.
This one is going to run for months, there seems to be a perception from within this group that what they do daily is not an extreme way of life for children. I beg to differ. I can only imagine what a childhood like this must produce and see very clearly what former members have described as the exercise of power and control by some in this kind of setting.

Children within this sect are raised believing that ALL of the mothers within a household ARE their mothers and all are called "mother" (Mother Sue, mother Ann, etc).
You don`t have to be a genius to conclude that it is a well-thought-out practice developed by the men in the sect to achieve COMPLETE control over the women. IF their own precious children are taught that every "mother" in their home is MOTHER, how very easily the man can rid himself of any disobedient wife and HIS home & children go right on with their other "mothers" and disruption is minimal. Women OBEY their "husbands" not only because they`ve never been allowed an education and any form of financial "ownership", but mostly because they can easily loose their most precious thing in their lives, their CHILDREN........at the whim of the man.
Their screwed-up teachings reduce women to vessles bringing children to earth for the advancement of the father`s life hereafter. Sick.
Not true that these "people" have a right to their beliefs! Not when it enslaves others!!

Creepy.

As a parent I find it very sad that the schedules of most children lean on Hollywood and the video games for thier imagination and creativity. Having children learn something that is useful in life is not a bad thing.

Doodles--what an ethoncentric point of view.

I know these people personally. I am an outsider with business that gets me a pretty good inside look at how they live and interact with their kids. Most of them are model kids--happy, well adjusted, hard-working and diciplined. The children of the FLDS stand head and shoulders above the children being raised in my upscale neighborhood here in St George.

Thank goodness the news is starting to reflect that. If you haven't seen the recent stories about what the mental health professionals who worked with the captive mothers and children are saying, take a look.

It sounds like you want to interpret "well disciplined" to mean brainwashed. My observations of these kids is anything but...

No habeus corpus protection. No Constitutional rights. Anyone can be imprisoned without charges, without trial. If you have a baby in custody, the child will immediately be snatched up and "protected" from you.

Saudi Arabia?

Guantanamo Bay?

No, it is Texas.

THIS is why the Founding Fathers so carefully worded the Second Amendment. Now, the government agents have no one to fear. Now, we should all fear them.

Get that child a birth certificate. Get a DNA sample to go with it.
Start them down the road as an individual, not a possession.

I doubt we can believe anything. Everything reported is likely biased one way or the other to try and convince people CPS and Texas authorities were right in the way they have handled this case. I'm alarmed about any child removed from the mother unless the mother is truly abusive; not just another victim of abuse. There would be no harm in keeping all the children with their mothers. Why in the world would anyone think that group settings and foster care are better than single mothers raising their children?

Yes, it is tragic that the children do not have toys but foster care is likely to expose them to video games and television (huge, addictive time wasters, often with bad messages). I guess this will make them "normal" by someone's standards. Children sitting glued in front of a screen are much better off than children helping with household and farm chores, right?

I've seen "normal" children who are belligerent, disprespectful and lazy. They won't lift a finger to help, contribute to the mess and expect someone else to take care of them, entertain them and buy them the latest electronic gadgets - even cell phones. Think about it.

Despite this grown woman submitting a Texas drivers license, CPS refuses to acknowledge it and consider the woman 15. So if her Texas issued drivers license isn't any good in Texas, where exactly is it valid and when do I want my money back for this worthless document?

How many kids in this world get to grow up with "fostered creativity" and the "standard preschool type toys."

It seems like all we have done with Doodle's method is raise a spoiled generation of kids. I wish my own kids were as respectful and disciplined as the FLDS. They argue and complain anytime they are asked to do some small chore. It "interfers" with their creative moment in front of the Xbox.

Get real. We missed the boat when we quit raising our kids their way.

Texas claims this is the way they would handle any case of suspected abuse. In that case Texans better be careful because even suspicion or a child's association with someone who "might" be abusive or has been found to be abusive puts them in danger of being taken from their parents (both parents; not just the one who is "possibly" abusive). Anonymous tips are just cause for drastic action with CPS calling the shots.

If they truly are consistent, let's hear about what Texas and their CPS is doing about all the other teenage mothers in the state. This certainly is not a problem only with FLDS. Yes, there are certainly problems in this community but I hope they are scouring the rest of the state as well. Other teen mothers whose pregnancy resulted from rape, incest and were drug related should also be "helped." Every abortion in a teen girl should be thoroughly investigated (including DNA testing) to see if the father is over age 18 and if so, that girl should be immediately removed and taken to a safe place. If her child is born alive, that child should also be saved, right?

This precedence scares me.

Why is this news? It seems everyday we hear that a young mother in the FLDS has given birth....ya..so? Texas has made a mess of this whole thing but do we have to re-live it over and over again day after day. enough already!

There is only two relevant questions about this in my opinion:

1. Does the state have the right to define abuse outside of the legal definition of abuse?

2.

The state of Utah began to move against the Hildale police force in 2005, revoking the certification of its polygamous chief. Sam Roundy admitted that he'd investigated over 25 sexual abuse cases in the past decade -- including one that involved the rape of an eight-year-old -- and never reported it to child protection authorities. (He pleaded ignorance of all mandated reporter laws.) However, Roundy was replaced with another polygamous officer who immediately sent Warren Jeffs a letter pledging his loyalty, and I found no word that he's left office since. Later that year, the Utah Supreme Court also disbarred the local polygamous judge, which paved the way for reform of the

Pat, it's not ours' or the state's business to judge their lifestyle until they have broken the law, at which point individuals not the entire group should be held accountable. I hope you understand this point I'm trying to make here.

So, you're sad about the schedule the kids have, the structure, number of toys, etc. So who told you your way of raising kids is perfect and everyone else must have the number of toys, hours with father, etc you recomend?

These comments remind me of an episode of "Wife Swap" I finally got around to watching this past week.

One family had a strict schedule, chores and rules, kids performed in a blue-grass band to earn extra money and no dating was allowed (kids were OK with that). The other family had no rules (parents thought that was too restrictive), no chores (just get money from mom whenever they need it), no schedules, the boy performed rap-music and the parents praised him for his obscene lirics, Son's girl-friend lived with the family and shared a bed with their son, daughter's boy-friend lived with them too and just mooched off the parents.

The Mother of the rapper-kid went to the conservative home and started bawling immediatly saying, "I feel so bad for these children, I JUST WANT TO TAKE THEM AWAY FROM HERE"!

Sounds like she had the same thinking as doodles and Texas CPS. WE don't like...

There are only two relevant legal questions in regard to this article:

1. Does the state have the power to define "abuse" more broadly than the legal definitions of physical, sexual and emotional abuse?

2. When abuse, as legally defined, is not present, does the state have the power to keep children in custody based on differences of opinion over child rearing methods?

No matter how "sad", "creepy" or "sick" you think the FLDS's approach to raising their children, if it is not illegal, it should not be used as a reason for justifying their removal from their parents.

Otherwise, we would be placing power in the hands of government agents to take children from parents based on their own personal criteria - which is far more "creepy" an idea than anything the FLDS have done.

Talk about propaganda. I find this all just a little too "nice" and contrived. When the unibrow lady was giving us the grand tour of their homes, I don't remember seeing a book or puzzle of any kind. No pics on the walls of anyone with the exception of Warren Jeffs and some of the other bishops, prophets or whoever they were. I do continue to think that it was odd that in their "living area" that all of the seating was straight back chairs all in a row. That is except for the one recliner in the front. Wonder which man got to sit in the "good chair"?

All I wrote in a post that was deemed "offensive, off-topic or misrepresentative" is that toys inhibit creativity and that advertising and toy companies thank you for your misguided belief. I wonder if this post will also be deemed not acceptable?

Over and over again on these blogs I read a variety of opinions on how children should be raised as if there was one right way that fits and suits all.
If a child has a daily routine and is loved and taught respect and how to help and serve others that is a bad childhood.
If he gets his own breakfast whenever he wakes up, scrambles over masses of toys all over his floor that he never is expected to clean up and watches Sponge Bob and plays Nintendo for hours then that is a better childhood.
Interesting philosophy.

As Rod Parker says of the CPS "This has become an issue of winning at ALL costs for them,"

this is why i should not be so quick to judge. first there was a call to cps by an "abused child". that turned into a prank call.resulting from the raid there is evedence that of underage marrages, some plural some not. i believe that there is an overstepping of authority and parents and children's constitutional right are being trampled......go figure....texas....what a surprise....

another baby? YES! get the welfare office on the phone! we have another claim!!!

"It's sad that they can't let their kids be kids."

Yeah, maybe stare at a tv or look at a book that depicts something intelligent like talking animals, talking trains, or talking teddy bears that live in the clouds.
Children have been being lovingly taught to be responsible and to have stuctured lives since we crawled out of the caves. Now secular society says that, for some reason, they should allowed to play with meaningless toys like monkeys. That slows, or prevents, emotional and social maturity. But it does make them good future cogs in some corporate machine.

Women are to have babies and take care of their husbands.
Kids are tax exemptions.
Men are gods of their planets.
It's God's way.

I hate to tell you all, but when helping my Grandmother fill out a "Mother's Journal" I learned that as a child she had NO TOYS!! NONE.. NOT A SINGLE ONE! She did have a doll that she was NOT allowed to play with. It was a "display doll" and she was allowed to hold when she was older. I have this doll now. She talked of great fun she had making pies with her mother, gardening, swimming in a pond, picking flowers for the table, etc. She was a very creative woman. I have the beautiful crocheted tableclothes, dresser scarves, etc. that she made. Oh, yes.. she was raised Baptist.

Are you really that gullible?? I highly doubt that you are an authentic teacher; any teacher worth their salt knows that children thrive with structure and (kind) discipline. You've been watching too much television. My parents grew up during the Depression. There wasn't enough money for store-bought toys, so they actually played outside and used their imaginations instead of playing video games or sitting with their noses glued to the T.V. What a novel concept! They were also expected to do chores inside and out, work hard in school so that they could hopefully earn scholarships for college, and help earn money for the family. My father paid room and board once he turned 16. Guess what? They grew up happy and moral. They have passed on their strong work ethic, concept and love of family unity, AND enjoyment of fun. You are a sad reflection of our society.

Where does it say in any supposed scripture children shouldn't have toys. Fine, they don't have to have Gi-Joes or Barbies, but why not some homemade wooden blocks? Or how about a homemade wooden truck. The FLDS seem rather crafty, I'm sure they could make a wooden toy or two or sew a cloth doll. My favorite toys growing up were my blocks and legos because I build anything I imagined. Heaven forbid a kid imagines something and trys to create or recreate it.

Poor kids...for fun they get to wash door knobs and feed chickens!

So was the real reason they kept her, despite evidence that she was older than 18, was because she was pregnant and this way they could take this newborn as well, and prevent it from being raised in such an "evil" environment?

Hey Children...you didn't have to buy your kid the Xbox. Society didn't raise your children, you did. So, if they whine and complain or not do what you say that's your own fault. You set the tone. They know they can get away with it because of how you raised them.

I grew up in a house where we had video games at a very early age (mid 80s). My parents regulated play, made sure I had chores, and made sure I did other things than just sit around and play video games.

Anybody can see an Xbox doesn't foster creativity. Try giving your child an instrument to play or some legos. Odds are your children aren't buying the toys themself.

I thought Poligamy WAS against the law. Am I right or am I wrong??????

To: take note | 5:14 a.m. May 13, 2008

If they find the abuse you describe I am sure many "Mormons" will be horrified. However I am not sure we are takling about the same group of people. Traditionally the term (slang) Mormon was used to identify members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, also known as LDS.
Some LDS memebers may be concerned about the constitutionality of the mess in Texas, but members of the LDS church do NOT condone child abuse. The leaders of the LDS church speak out against it frequently and the members are expected to follow the laws of the land. Contrast that with the FLDS leaders and members and their obvious distain for the laws.

If you still have trouble seeing the truth repalce the word "Mormon" with "Christian" in your comment and you might see the light of truth.

I ran out of words and the server was having problems accepting comments.

This is about the "Wife Swap" a few weeks ago where the Mother who let her son's girl-friend and her daughter's boy-friend live in their home and share a bed with them...

When she was sent to a family where the kids had a schedule, rules, faith, music, etc, she immediatly started BAWLING and said, "I JUST FEEL SO SAD FOR THEM, WHY CAN'T THEY JUST LET THEM BE KIDS, I JUST WANT TO TAKE THEM AWAY"... (sounds like the same mind set as Texas CPS, doodles and NO CHILDHOOD @ 6:48). Bawling... "THEY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH TOYS, THEY LIKE TO WORK, THEY HAVE A SCHEDULE! WHY CAN'T THEY JUST LET THEM BE KIDS!" Oh Boo-hoo!

Comments from people here who think they know how many toys a kid should have (or they are being abused). Thinking only THEIR life-style is OK (all other's kids should be taken away). Believing ANY restrictions or structure during childhood is "BAD" and that they should have the right to intervene in any family that had a stricter life-style than theirs... just brought back this Wife Swap episode to me.

I see a lot of folks jumping on Doodles for advocating that children play with toys. Did any of you actually look at the list of toys? No mention of Nintendo or cartoon characters. Just the kinds of toys that REQUIRE imagination. Yes, children can use their imagination without toys, but simple toys are very useful in early child development. Not the kind we see today, where something very complicated does something very specific, but the kind that kids use to build something, or pretend to be someone (like a fire fighter or carpenter).

And "Take Note," it may not have been intentional, but you have equated the FLDS with the LDS. While there are similarities to our beliefs, the two are different and separate, and we in the LDS church are just as horrified by what has been reported to be going on in that compound.

That mom never had a chance! We all know she is a terrible parent via her religious background--her guilt is self evident. Convicted in the court of public opinion and in the hearts of the CPS, she has now been proven to be an unfit mother--her sentence? Immediate confiscation of her just-born child!

Oh MY HECK! I hope and pray I never get on the downside of popular opinion.

I'm just wondering why this is news. With the number of those girls who are pregnant, this is bound to happen pretty often.

All you people out there worried about how many toys they had, or how uncomfortable their dinner chairs appeared, or that they didn't have enough pictures on the wall (for your taste)...

Shees, who made you the standard of all that is good? I hope you never come into my house, it sounds like I could have my kids taken away because of a home decoration violation!

The FLDS don't teach their children, they indoctrinate them.

The environment and schedule of the FLDS children is completely controlled. There is no individual thought allowed. No freedom of expression. No ability to make individual choices. All of the choices for this community are made by the men.

The only education they receive is what the men decide they want the children to learn. Nothing more.

If you're born into this community and you're a girl, you will be programmed to become a baby-making machine for whomever the old men decide they should mate you with.

If you're born into this community and you're a boy, you'll be programmed to become one of the controlling old men, or, if you're not one of the "lucky" 1-in-3 boys who make the cut, you'll be kicked out of the community as soon as you are old enough to become competition for the old men.

Don't give me this phoney argument that the FLDS are simply protecting their children from the outside world.

God's plan is to teach children correct principles, then give them the freedom to make their own choices.

Satan's plan is mind control with no freedom to make choices.

Kids need to be kids. They need time to be creative. They don't need much in the way of toys (I had lots of blocks and a barbie when I was younger). It is important to teach kids to be hard-working but you don't start as soon as they begin to walk. Kids today are largly disrespectful and unmotivated but that is mostly because their parents are not being parents, they are over worked and have little time for disipline. That said I feel a typical child has more freedom in chosing their life than the FLDS children do and to me that is very sad.